Face time

[threemonkeys]

A couple of discussions from tonight...
Topic for the next Phoenix meeting - "Why are we here (instead of online)". How various electronic communications change how we interact. Asks the question whether getting together for face to face interactions will be necessary in the future.

Planning for Conclave in June - "lets have an lj party on the Friday night". The idea is to get to meet some people in rl.

It is interesting to consider these together. The second sort of answers the first. There is a desire for face to face interaction at least some of the time. But how often? Is that a question where the average answer will change over time. ("average" because individual people obviously vary a lot).

Comments

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

Writing is more energy intensive than talking. That's pretty much it.

The 'meet in a chat room' idea sounds good on the screen, but the reality is that very few people can type as fast as they talk, they are often distracted by side conversations or other activities (imagine having a discussion when a third of your participants are whispering to each other, that couple over there are having sex, another third are reading books and only listening with half a ear, and the last third are all talking at once about the subject at hand).

Online favours those that can type fast. Real life we all talk and listen around the same speed.

I like online because of the lack of time binding. I can communicate with someone without the requirement of being in the same place at the same time.

But often being in the same place at the same time is a good thing. Imagine replacing going to the pub with everyone sitting at home drinking beer by themselves and typing at the keyboard. Not the same really.

Lastly consider bandwidth issues. I'm always amazed at the amount of emotional content you can extract from written interactions, but it still doesn't substitute for a face to face meeting where you can hear tones of voice, see facial expressions etc. Actually as part of you next discussion night encourage people to participate with paper bags over their heads to better simulate the online experience.

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

To clarify because I think my post was rather incoherent. When I say lj party, I mean that various local lj users who normally only interact electronically, actually get together face to face at the next con. The fact that we feel the need to have such a gathering reinforces what you are saying.

gialiat is running the next Phoenix meeting discussing whether organisations like Phoenix might have a more online existence. Obviously issues such as you mention will come up as auguments against. I suspect she also plans to talk about technologies such as online video and how those might affect the face to face requirement (if at all - personally I suspect not).

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

The answer to gialiat's question is:

Only if someone has the energy to do so. Whenever these discussions come up everyone agrees that having more of X would be a good idea, but when asked who will bell the cat there is often a resounding silence.

Perhaps I am becoming too cynical but having partcipated in online communites for almost two decades I know all the pitfalls and unexpected outcomes.

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

Only if someone has the energy to do so.

Something which also applies to running a club like Phoenix. We always struggle to get enough people to take stuff on.

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

If Phoenix shut its doors tomorrow who would be greatly inconvenienced? Active participation in all group activities is declining in the community. Scouts et al are all having trouble attracting people willing to do the work to keep the activities going.

When I joined NASF back in 1980, it was really the only game in town. There were the occasional SF TV shows (which you couldn't tape), books and that was it. If you wanted to talk about SF you were either lucky enough to have friends who were interested or … Nothing.

The meeting that got me to join the local branch of NASF was one where a taped interview of my idol Isaac Asimov was played. Very low tech, but not only was it something I couldn't do for myself, there were girls at the meeting! Here was something I couldn't get from reading books by myself.

These days there are so many other distractions. TV SF shows are easily available via the DVD sets, and there is more SF than you could comfortably watch in a month. If you aren't interested in that, you can go online and participate in endless forums.

Clubs only really work if they give scope for extroverts to get egoboo. There are so many other ways for extroverts to get their attention needs satisfied these days.

I keep thinking about reviving "Phlogiston" as an e-zine as that would remove the bits I really hated about doing it (printing it out, putting it in envelopes and mailing it out). I always come back to the fact that editing the damned thing wasn't that enjoyable either, there was always the constant hassle of drumming up content as contributors weren’t beating a path to my door. Eventually the satisfaction of creating something (no matter how ephemeral) was overcome by the stress and effort in creating it.

As for providing a showcase for my own writing, well it looks like Live Journal is scratching that particular itch. Even if I only have an audience of four!

For a few years I did run a weekly newsletter for a community until I finally threw my toys out of the bassinet and gave up. While everyone agreed it was wonderful, no one else replaced it, no one was interested in putting in the time. I don't think people really miss it.

Since then I have written the occasional article on that specialist subject and posted it out to the mailing lists. But you never get any feedback unless you say something controversial, otherwise it just falls into the void (there was a reason I finally entitled the letters column in "Phlogiston" "echoes from the void").

Today is clearly a grumpy cynical day.

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

If Phoenix shut its doors tomorrow who would be greatly inconvenienced? Active participation in all group activities is declining in the community.

Therein lies the crux of why we are having a meeting about electronic interaction. There is an argument that clubs like Phoenix are becoming (have become) irrelevant. So what, if anything, lies in the future for such an organisation.

Today is clearly a grumpy cynical day
Ah yes, I know the feeling. One has to feed the inner curmudgeon. :-}

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

Is there a viable alternative for people to meet other people of similar interests for romantic entanglements? If not then clubs where people meet face to face still have a clear purpose.

I meet my first lover at a SF event (the monthly dinners at the pub in Tory street (long since demolished (help I am trapped in a set of recursive bracketing (where is a lisp programmer when you need one)))), my first wife at a SF convention, at least one potential mistress (she was too virtuous alas) at another con. Latter romantic entanglements I met online.

Is Phoenix still facillating people rubbing their wabby bits together?

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

Which harks back to the original post - there is still a place for face to face interaction. Phoenix should be the place for it, but interest in the club seems to be declining, so it may not be as effective for this function as before. The conventions still seem to be attracting people for more intensive, and potentially romantic, socialising.

There is an old joke about a hacker getting hold of an important piece of government programming written in lisp. To prove it he posted the last page of the code: )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
well you get the idea.

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

What can Phoenix do at its meetings that is more interesting than watching the latest episode of "Stargate" freshly downloaded off the internet?

If Phoenix ceases to exist, where are the people to run the conventions that facillate the wabby bit stuff going to come from?

If the club nights didn't clash with another social engagement I'm strongly tempted to come along to the next meeting if only to spread gloom and doom face to face. (But they do, so I will be doing face to face with a different social group entirely).

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

Apart from a one-off previews evening last month, phoenix is not in the business of showing videos at the main meeting at all. But yes in general the question of how to keep people interested at meetings is often discussed at committee meetings - the committee is in need of new ideas and more importantly people to implement them. That usually means new people and nobody is stepping forward.

I have some small hope for the cons because the organisers of next year's wellington con are not Phoenix members. Perth seems to handle an annual convention without any club focus at all.

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

I have become so jaded with doing nice things for other people in the context of clubs etc that I have arrived at a very simple principle entitled "f*ck them all". If I'm going to put effort into a presentation or a meeting topic, then it will be something I'm interested in and something I'll get value out of.

Otherwise it becomes impossible to proceed as you end up worrying about how to fulfil the needs of a group of people who are at best inarticulate and at worse actively hostile to anything that doesn't require spoon feeding.

The story of the little Red Hen is as true today as when it was penned.

If the committee are not getting something out of running Phoenix beyond sitting around worrying about how to make it relevant to the ever increasing complexity of today's society. Then they should stop.

A dynamic exciting program coupled with an extensive advertising campaign would bring in many new more demanding members ...

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

If the committee are not getting something out of running Phoenix beyond sitting around worrying about how to make it relevant to the ever increasing complexity of today's society. Then they should stop.

I personally plan to. I stood down from the committee a couple of years ago because I was too jaded. Then coming back from the fun the was a Swancon, I got motivated to give it another go. It was a mistake. I do hope somebody with more energy and enthusiasm than me takes my place.

[thoatherder.livejournal.com]

A membership with more energy and enthusiasm would help a lot. Maybe we need to bring back the feuds of yesteryear. Where is Greg Hills when you need him?

http://www.geocities.com/trevorgudsell

[threemonkeys.livejournal.com]

*shudder*